Challenging the Dehumanization of Women

Genim Muhammed (Nuêbûnewe Magazin) inteviewed Tania Kurd Mirza:

“One of the major problems is that women are not treated with the dignity and respect they deserve as human beings!”

Tania Kurd Mirza, a master’s degree holder in law, is a prominent figure in combating violence against women and children. She is one of the most prominent and active women in the field of women’s and children’s rights in Kurdistan, and has dedicated her life to promoting their rights. Her writings have been published in various books and articles, including “Shorbay Pelaw” (Soup of Shoe), “Rehana’s Blood or bloody Mint”, “each hug means not love” (educational), and numerous articles and research papers.

A Heartfelt Conversation

I was honored to have this opportunity to conduct an interview with Tania Kurd Mirza in this new issue of the Renewal Magazine, particularly on the topic of women’s issues. I would like to extend my gratitude to her for her thoughtful and detailed responses to my questions. With her insightful and courageous approach, she has shed light on the wounds and sufferings of women, and has offered solutions to their problems. Her words are a testament to her dedication to the cause of women’s freedom and empowerment.

The Issue of Women’s Humanity Being Overlooked

As an expert, I want you to define the problem of women or the women’s issue. What is the core of the women’s issue in your opinion?

Someone links the women’s issue to the country and its laws, while others link it to religion and social norms. In my opinion, these are not the core issues. The core issue is that women are marginalized, they have been dehumanized and treated as a “women”. Women are seen as separate from humanity and are only recognized as gender based ‘women’, not as human beings. The main problem is that women are not considered as human beings. A woman who only accepted like woman not a human being, then her femininity becomes a problem for her.
To solve this problem, we need to start by teaching generation by generation that women are human beings before they are women. Then, we need to teach that the women’s issue is a human issue, not just a women’s issue.

In many countries, it’s rare to hear the word “human” used alongside the word “woman”. When the human issue is linked to gender, it creates a problem, whether it’s a woman or a man.
Using the term of ‘woman’ instead of using the term of ‘human being’, has brought great consequences to humanity and women themselves. In third-world countries, we rarely hear the word human alongside the word ‘woman’ or even after it.

When a person’s problems are linked to his gender, then his gender creates problems for him, whether he is a man or a woman. Why is there no mention of “men’s problems”? Obviously, if he has problems, because men’s masculinity has not been made a problem for him. When we talk about the problems of men, it’s often in the context of their roles as workers, fathers, or politicians. But when we talk about women’s problems, it’s often only about their gender.

Men don’t have a problem with being men, they don’t have problem because they are men because they are seen as human beings, and their problems are discussed as human problems. While women have a problem with being women, men have problems with lack of jobs, low income, limited or unlimited power, which are human problems, not men’s.
Even when men are victims of violence in war or in the family and at work, it is a big mistake to describe their problems as men’s problems, because their masculinity has not really been a problem for them. The female gender is so emphasized and so talked about that nothing else about women is seen, which is also a problem.

Is it true that the problem of women starts after the common era? Does this mean that this water has flowed since the time of class formation and women have been oppressed ever since?

The class stage has taken the women’s problem from one staircase to another, I don’t know whether one staircase is higher or lower. If it is higher, it is closer to explosion, and if it is lower, it is closer to collapse, I will let the answer for the future. Women had problems before the class stage, but as I said, their problems were different. When women had power in an era called “femininity stage”, it does not mean that women had no problems. Women had power, decisions, and men approved of their decisions, but does this mean that they had no problems?

Many people view women’s issues as being separate from human issues, but this is not accurate. Women are human beings, and their problems should be seen as human problems. When we only focus on the gender aspect of women’s problems, we risk oversimplifying the issue and failing to address the root causes.
If women have received this power because they are human beings, dominating society, running life and organizing the family, we can say that the class stage has brought problems for women and women have not had problems before, but fact is that women got power because they were “female”, women became dominant because of femininity not human being and that is the issue.

It is still a problem whether a woman is given or taken away her status and rights because she is a woman. The class period changed women’s issues. During this period, various excuses came up to redefine women. In this stage, various definitions of women have emerged, but they are not better than before.

The definitions and categorizations of women in this stage are not due to the fact that society and the era have recognized women’s humanity, but because the era and society have demanded that women be redefined once again, and some new roles are given to them, while old roles were still remaining. Once again, men tried to adjust women to their own market and interests, and impose their own definitions on them. This stage has led to a greater oppression or, rather, a distortion of women’s roles, not giving them new roles and treating them as human beings, nor taking away their old roles and giving them to men. In every stage, women are given authority as “women” or taken away from them as women, and this stage is the stage of women’s oppression.

Power and authority, if not in the hands of humans, if not limited by a modern, human-centered law, will lead to the oppression of those who have authority, and then others. This is also true for men, where a person with authority can use their power to dominate others, even talking about freedom. A woman can gain authority in the class era or even before, but having authority does not mean being powerful or freedom. A person can be powerful and free without having authority, but an authority figure who has gained power due to their gender and cannot be controlled by law is lack one and is not a free person. The class era has also failed to create a powerful and free woman, even if it has given her authority

Why doesn’t the discussion on women’s issues end and, and it’s like they say, ‘the more we talk, the more problems we create?

When we don’t know what the problem is, talking about it becomes a mere exercise in futility, rather than an attempt to find a solution. The issue of women is also like this. Each person talks about it based on their own beliefs and understanding, and that’s why no one knows what the solution is!The issue of women, like any other issue, needs to be defined and diagnosed, and most people agree on this later on and should looks for solutions. When everyone puts their own problem on the table and groups come together to discuss it, the problems are disappeared and we don’t reach a solution!

Often, many solutions are presented for women’s issues, but without discussing the problem itself, it becomes just a topic of conversation, not a real solution. What’s important is to understand the significance of the problem and the community’s role in solving it not only presenting a solution without talking about the main issue. Talking about the problems is not like presenting solutions. Solutions are important, but we need to first identify the problems, find ways to address them, and then the solutions will emerge. Until now, discussing women’s issues has created more problems rather than solving them, and that’s why it’s like a never-ending cycle of problems. So, what’s the solution? The solution to women’s issues in the middle East is still just talk, and it’s not in the laws or in the people’s minds.

Do the Eastern and Western women have the same problem or are they different?

The answer is simple: yes and no. The problem of Eastern and Western women is the same, because “being women” is for both of them have been made into a problem. The Western woman is recognized as a “woman” within the Western system, that is, she is named as a woman, and in that system, she is considered next to a man, which is a common point of the problem of women.

However, the point of difference is that the Western woman is at least recognized as a human being by the law, with protected rights, given rights, and limits set for her authority. On the other hand, the Eastern woman is only considered a woman, a mother, but not a human being, which is a very significant difference.

If the Eastern woman’s problems are different, is the Western woman still trapped in the cycle of Eastern woman’s problems or has she been freed from that cycle? Where is she free and where is she not?

The problems of women around the world are similar in some aspects and different in others. Some problems are specific to women in third-world countries, while others are faced by Western women, but with different laws and regulations. The lack of inheritance rights, polygamy, honor killings, and extramarital sexual relationships are problems faced by Eastern women, but not by Western women, who have laws that protect their rights.

What has become a problem for Western women today is not a problem for Eastern women, because they have not yet reached the level of understanding what this stage and issue is. The Eastern woman is not free! When I say she is not free, I mean that all Eastern women are the same; no woman in the East or in third-world countries is truly free, regardless of their education, social status, or wealth. A free woman is one who lives in a country where she has legal freedom and protection, and where the law punishes those who violate her rights. The Eastern woman is not free because there is no country that provides her with freedom and protection.

On the other hand, the Western woman is free because the law supports and guarantees her freedom. In addition to the law, Western culture is dominant and powerful, and it values and protects women’s rights and freedom. The problem of the Western woman is not the lack of freedom, but rather the misuse of her freedom.

One of the problems of the Western woman is that she is forced to be free, and freedom has become a burden for her. This has created a paradox. I don’t mean that the Western woman should not have the right to freedom, or that she should not be human. What I mean is that freedom should not be a burden, because freedom is not a right that can be granted as a gift and forced women to take it or has a power to take away. Freedom has become a condition for the Western woman, and in some cases, it has led to her losing more of her rights. This is a new problem faced by Western women.

How Important is the Legal Solution to Women’s Problems? To what extent is the legal solution important in addressing women’s problems? Can the law be a barrier to protecting women and can it be the only solution to their problems?

The Limitations of Laws

The first, last and most important solution to women’s problems is the law, but what kind of law? In third-world countries, there are laws, but they are often inadequate and do not provide sufficient protection for women. In other words, the existence of laws is not enough; they need to be implemented and enforced. The law should prioritize women’s rights and protection, rather than treating them as mere objects and not laws that introduce women as machines to reproduce and satisfy men’s sexual desires.

In third-world countries, women are often treated as inferior beings, they have laws to regulate marriage, inheritance, and their rights in the event of divorce but their rights are not respected and there are no laws to protect their rights.. In Third World countries, a woman is treated as a child and an ignorant person from birth until her death. They are not allowed to make decisions about their own bodies, and their freedom is limited. They are often forced into marriage, and their inheritance rights are not recognized. Women traveling alone is still prohibited in most Third World countries (by law or culture) and must be accompanied by a man!

A woman in the East cannot own a house alone, the half of brother’s inheritance is given to her, she has no right over her own body, she cannot make her own decisions, and if she becomes pregnant, it’s not her choice, because her husband will be worried and might even kill her because of this!

In general, an Eastern woman does not own her body and cannot make her money (even if she works). These are all against the law. I’m not talking about a such a kind of law; I’m talking about the modern western law that can solve women’s problems. The law should recognize women as human beings, give them the right to make decisions over their own bodies, and provide them with the right to life and the freedom to choose their husbands, without the interference of their families.

There are always two lines, if they are not parallel, they will eventually intersect. These two lines are the law and social education. Education and awareness are crucial in promoting women’s rights and empowerment. These two lines are constantly intertwined in third-world countries and change places, which is another obstacle to solving women’s problems. Women’s problems need to be solved quickly and fundamentally, and that solution must be achieved by enacting modern laws, and then working to raise awareness in society. However, education and awareness alone are not enough; they need to be accompanied by legal and policy changes that promote women’s rights and empowerment.

The second step is to support the law, because the law itself has the power to be implemented. It is futile to hope for the solution of women’s problems through organizations, conferences, and gatherings. The law is a quick and effective solution, but raising awareness in society is a long and difficult process. Education and awareness can have a positive impact on human thought and behavior, but if this knowledge is not enough to create a positive change, what then?

In brief, we can reform society through law, because it has a penalty, either through education or not! Implementing laws that protect women’s rights is crucial in addressing women’s problems. The law should be enforced, and those who violate women’s rights should be held accountable. It doesn’t mean that we should give up on education. We must educate our children about modern laws that are available. A comprehensive approach is needed to address women’s problems, including legal, educational, and social changes. The law should be seen as a tool to promote women’s rights and empowerment, rather than a barrier to their freedom and autonomy.

The important point in education is that the government should not leave it to individuals, various organizations, and private schools to educate our children as they wish. There should be a comprehensive education system that the government oversees, and that education system should not be a substitute for the law. The law is above all for solving women’s problems, as the first and last option.

The implementation of the law is crucial, but is it 100% effective? Does the implementation of the law not limit human rights and freedoms?

The power of the law lies in its implementation, and the implementation of the law is effective, it is 100% effective, but is it possible to implementation the law? The annual statistics of Western countries show that the implementation of the law is not 100% effective. If it were, the crime rates and statistics of these countries would be zero, but unfortunately, that is not the case. Some countries have high crime rates despite having laws in place, and they are far from achieving zero crime rates. The implementation of the law is effective, but it is not enough; countries need to continuously work on strengthening their police forces and law enforcement agencies and not be complacent about the implementation of the law.

The problem with the implementation of the law is not just about implementing it, but also about which law is being implemented. Is it a law that restricts human rights or a modern law that protects them? The implementation of a modern law protects human rights and freedoms, but it should not be used to limit them. A restrictive law that is against human rights not only violates human rights but also limits freedoms, such as the freedom of speech, assembly, and family. Freedoms should be regulated by law, and their limits should be defined, and penalties should be set for violating those limits. Freedom without limits is not freedom and can lead to the violation of others’ rights and sometimes even to crime.

What Role Do Religions Play in Reducing Women to Second-Class Citizens or Slaves of Men?

Religions have not reduced women to second-class citizens, but rather, they have been interpreted and distorted over time to justify the oppression of women. The interpretations of religious texts have been used to limit women’s rights and freedoms, and to justify their subjugation and make them “women” instead of “human”. When a woman is the only “woman” in religions, when she is respected if she is old, but when she is young she is circumcised for a kiss, when she is called holy if she is a mother. Would not talked about their role as humans rather as “female”.

In religious interpretations, women are often portrayed as inferior to men, and their roles are limited to domestic duties. They are seen as child-bearers and caregivers, rather than as equal human beings with the same rights and freedoms as men.

In the interpretation of the texts of the heavenly religions, let me mention people’s interpretation of the Qur’an; According to the interpretations of the Qur’an, women are not included in the rank, that’s why we cannot even talk about second class or any classes. Women are only known as women, and they are called women as long as they do not deviate from the interpretation of the texts. If a woman moves in the circle they want, she is sanctified. It is not because they are good human, not because they think women are capable, but because they want to say that you are holy provided you are a doll of your household, otherwise you will be circumcised and burned in the fire of hell!

The problem lies not with religion itself, but with the interpretation and distortion of religious texts to justify the oppression of women. A modern and progressive interpretation of religious texts is needed, one that recognizes the equal rights and dignity of women.

The next step is for the state to take over the religious sermons itself, determine the subject of the sermons for the mullahs and preachers and not allow anyone to give sermons at their own discretion and according to the trend they have followed. In addition, religious schools and those where the Qur’an and Sharia are taught should be under the control of the state and should not insult women, encourage violence, advocate environmental damage and racism.

Kurds need to develop their own religious identity, one that is based on their own culture and values. That is, their religion must be Kurdish religion, just as the religion of a Pakistani is Pakistani, the religion of a Turk is Turkish religion, and that of an Uyghur is Uyghur. The government should not allow foreign religious ideologies to dominate Kurdish society, but rather, it should promote a Kurdish Islamic identity that is based on equality, justice, and human rights. The government must not allow Salafi, Brotherhood and Arab religion to replace Kurdish religion, from the sermons of the mullahs to the interpretation of the Qur’an and the style of women’s clothing.

Isn’t polygamy reducing women to half or a quarter of a human being? What do you think about the statement that if there is polygamy, there should be also polyandry?

In polygamy, there is no existence of women, neither half-human nor quarter-human. What exists is only men with the bodies of women. Women in polygamy are mere objects for the satisfaction of men’s desires and the perpetuation of patriarchy. In reality, polygamy is built on the absence of women and its continuation is based on the denial of women’s rights, freedoms, and existence.

Polygamy should be banned by law, and there is no justification for allowing or legalizing it, even by the Quran itself. The only quick and guaranteed solution to restore humanity to women and prevent men from taking away their humanity is to ban polygamy by law. A good example is Turkey, a predominantly Muslim country, where polygamy is banned by law, and no one can justify it by citing the Quran. As I said, the Quranic texts should be reinterpreted, and then it will be easy to enact laws that protect women’s and human rights, which are compatible with Islam and the Quran.

Advocating for polyandry or supporting it in response to polygamy is not a solution, but rather, it is a justification for polygamy. When a society demands polyandry and justifies it with polygamy, nothing remains unsolved, and the problem persists. Men will have multiple wives, and women will have multiple husbands, and the issue will continue.

In response to polygamy, we have the opposition to polygamy, not the imposition or legalization of polyandry. Polygamy should be banned, and it is not allowed even by the Quran, even by its own command. Therefore, a law should be enacted based on the Quran, banning polygamy, and there is no need for religious people to justify it by citing the Quran, as the Quran is against it. Nor is there a need for liberals to advocate for polyandry in the name of freedom, as polyandry is a justification for polygamy and against women’s rights, freedom of choice, and freedom over their bodies.

The Kurdish saying “ A shy man equal to a cell, a shy woman equal to a city.” How much do you believe this? Shouldn’t many of the words of the ancients be shelved?

Perhaps it wouldn’t be bad to reverse the Kurdish proverb. A shy man is not bad, as long as he is not shy about everything (I actually laughed at this proverb). Kurdish men must be very shy in some things, very self-conscious, including violence, eye contact, loudness, immorality and wandering around.

It is a good thing if a Kurdish man is ashamed to looking at the body of a woman who wears a short skirt of her own free will, not listening to a song in his car which is only based on singing to a female child’s body. It would be a great asset if the proverb were such that a man is ashamed to raise his hand against his wife and sister, ashamed to take his sister’s inheritance, and ashamed of his daughter crying at night while she is afraid to get divorced from her husband because of her father, brother and society.

A shy man would be better if he were ashamed to avoid him self talking about the style of women’s clothes, if his sister-in-law’s scurf was not his pleasure, and if the appearance of their neighbor’s daughter’s thighs did not worry him.

A shy man equal to not only a city, but a country, but a shy woman must receive treatment so that she will not be ashamed.

Women should not be ashamed to defend themselves, their rights, their choices (right and wrong). Women must not be ashamed of their femininity, not allow their femininity, physical characteristics and hormones to be used as a reason to deprive them of their rights. We have many Kurdish proverbs that have played a role in enslaving women and dominating men. These proverbs must be talked about and the new generation must be taught that these kind of Proverb were wrong, our ancestors were wrong, conservative and violent.

Does shame make a woman ashamed of her body growth and a poor girl must hide her breast growth. Isn’t this a top sign of shame?

To guarantee that women are not ashamed of their bodies and talk about themselves, we need a state. The state must have a program for the children from the fetus until the death and educate them. Once again, this must be done by the state alone. No organization, printing house or center should be allowed to do such a thing because the harm is ten times greater than the benefit. After the state, the family must implement the state’s program. Girls must be taught not to be ashamed of their bodies, and boys must be taught to respect girls’ bodies.

Parents play a crucial role in shaping their children’s values and beliefs. They should teach their daughters that their bodies are their own and that they should not be ashamed of them. They must tell their daughters that they don’t have to wear skimpy clothes to hide their breasts. They must understand that it is a new stage and she is as beautiful as her childhood. In Third World societies, when a girl breastfeeds, she is given ragged clothes to hide her breasts, as if she had stolen something and needed to hide it, or as if she had committed a crime.
It is time to be proud of girls’ breasts alongside boys’ beards. The first step is to call breasts breasts, not chests. Why are girls’ breasts called chests?!

A woman should not be ashamed of her menstrual cycle and its natural processes, and at the same time, she should not be considered abnormal or defective. What should be done about this?

A woman should not be ashamed of her menstrual cycle and its natural processes, and at the same time, she should not be considered abnormal or defective. In traditional and conservative societies, a woman’s puberty and youth are seen as a threat, and her body is viewed as a source of danger. This is because they believe that a woman’s body is a vessel for childbirth, and any deviation from this norm is seen as a threat to the social order.

Happily, in Western societies, this view has been overcome through laws and education, and women are no longer seen as mere childbearing vessels. However, in Eastern societies, this view still persists, and women are expected to conform to traditional norms and values.

A woman cannot change the entire society on her own, but she can start by demanding respect for her body and its natural processes. She should not be ashamed of her menstrual cycle, and she should not be seen as defective or abnormal.

The law should support women’s rights, and the constitution should guarantee women’s freedom and autonomy over their bodies. In Germany, the constitution guarantees women’s right to freedom and autonomy over their bodies. In France, the law recognizes women’s right to abortion as a constitutional right. In Spain, women are entitled to paid leave during their menstrual cycle.

Women in Eastern societies should also demand their rights and autonomy over their bodies, but this requires a reinterpretation of religious texts. Once this is done, women will no longer be ashamed of their menstrual cycle, and they will no longer be seen as defective or abnormal.

The next step is to educate the state and the family, and this is a continuous process that should not stop. Education should start from pregnant and continue until death. Humans are created in the West, but in the East, there are many different types of humans, and this should be stopped. Humans should be created with dignity and respect, not with shame and ignorance. A woman should not be ashamed of her body, and she should not be seen as defective or abnormal. Her menstrual cycle, pregnancy, childbirth, and menopause are all-natural processes that should be respected and valued. These natural processes are not something to be ashamed of, but rather something to be celebrated and respected.

Even shame and traditional norms make a woman ashamed of her husband, considering him the owner of her body, and she has to wait for his permission to make decisions about her own body?

In Eastern societies, sex is still seen as a right of men and has no connection to women’s desires. Women are only seen as a means to satisfy men’s desires and to bear children for them and society. Eastern women have been taught that sex is only for childbearing, and they believe that sex is not for their own pleasure but rather a duty to their husbands. Girls are also taught this, and it has been ingrained in them.

In Western societies, this view has been overcome, and sex is seen as a mutual pleasure for both men and women. In the West, women can choose to have sex or not, and they are not ashamed to talk about it. Sex is not just for childbearing, and science and law have given women the freedom to make their own choices. Women in the West can choose to be mothers without a husband, or they can have a male partner, which is far from the reality in our society. Women should be able to talk about sex like men, discuss it with their partners, and express their likes and dislikes without shame or fear of being judged.

How do you view homosexuality among women? I’ve searched many sources, but I haven’t found any evidence that homosexuality is a natural human behavior. What do you think?

I live in the West, where homosexuality is recognized as a human right, and same-sex marriage is legal. As a legal expert, I believe in these laws. As a legal expert, the causes, how, why and when are not important to me, the consequences are important to me. The outcome is that homosexuality exists, and these individuals have the right to live their lives as they choose. Whether some reject it or not does not change their existence.

What bothers me is the way we talk about homosexuality; where and how. In third-world countries, discussing homosexuality should not be used to normalize it as a natural behavior. It should not be promoted as a lifestyle choice, especially among young people, because there is no legal support for it, and society does not accept it, So why should such a thing be done?!
In the West, people are against promoting homosexuality, regardless of the reason. I am against promoting homosexuality, even if it’s through cartoons or children’s games. It’s not right to impose homosexuality on future generations and make it a substitute for sexual orientation. If I’m against promoting homosexuality in the West, I’m doubly against it in Kurdistan, where there are more victims and no legal protection and because I am against advertising and forcing anything on children and young people.

If some people accept homosexuality and live in Kurdistan, they should let them go and pass a law for it, I know that such a thing cannot be done, that’s not possible, so why do they keep bringing up this topic? Homosexual Kurds like homosexual in west have the right to their sexual orientation, but promoting it through discussion is not a legal right. Discussing a new and sensitive topic like this without legal support means increasing the number of victims and rising violence.

Translated by Tania Kurd Mirza